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Monday, March 21, 2022

"What if you don't fudge?" addendum - OSR versus modern D&D

A small addendum to my latest post. I shared in on Reddit, in both OSR and "general D&D" (i.e., all editions) communities.

While the reaction in the OSR circles has been mostly positive (with a few "this is obvious," "you're late to the party", "you're preaching to the choir" comments) the "general D&D" reaction has been mixed.

In the D&D community, I've got positive and negative comments, and even a few vague defenses of fudging die rolls (especially for new players or low-level PCs since the system is "too deadly"), but not really any extensive defenses of fudging. Maybe the most elaborate response I got is that dice are there to help you tell a story, and they should be disregarded if they hinder the story.

(Even if you think RPGs are meant to tell a story, I do think fudging dice WITHOUT players knowing this possibility is tantamount to cheating. Detailed explanation here). 



It might be a particularity of these two communities... but I do not think so. I think this may point to a fundamental difference between OSR and modern D&D. I am certain that many 5e players and GMs find fudging dice abominable, but at least the idea is more or less acceptable in "modern D&D" circles.

I do not think, however, that this is entirely intentional. The lack of an elaborate argument in defense of fudging and even the lack of honest communication (i.e., DMs fudge the dice without telling the players that this is possible) indicates to me that this is an habit that "modern" DMs adopted without reflection.

Let me reiterate that I do not object to whatever play-style you choose. However, I'd encourage you to reflect on that and choose what you find best. 

I'd also love to see a coherent defense of fudging. 

I am thinking of at least one argument myself: I think PC death is a PROBLEM to be solved and not only a preference (something I address by the end of the last post but deserves a post of its own, coming soon).

Further reading:

10 comments:

  1. I firmly believe that dice fudging stems from an unwillingness to look at other games. GMs are trying to take their preferred game engine and shoe-horn different playstyles into it that don't fit. So they have to fudge roles, or adjust rules/stats, etc... in order to protect the "game" they're trying to run. The simple solution is to play a game that supports your desired gameplay.

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    1. Good point. Certainly true for those who think D&D is too deadly at lower levels.

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    2. Yep, and that's a great example. Hackmaster already solved that problem, and it's essentially still D&D.

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  2. Here's my coherent defense... when I'm GMing, I am God. The rules, campaign, and dice are all subject to my ultimate and unilateral authority.

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    1. Well, that's certainly... one way to do things!

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    2. As foretold by an RPG luminary you just may have heard of in passing... Gary Gygax!

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  3. I mean, PC death IS a problem to be solved. And it's meant to be solved (or avoided) by playing smarter and rolling luckier.

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    1. Yup - good point. It is a problem and a solution at the same time, I guess. More about that later...

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  4. I am a DM who doesn't fudge... almost. I fudged a minor demon's hit points once so that the fighter's horse, already on low hit points, got to kill it, instead of the demon surviving the hit and killing the horse. Neither the horse nor the demon had the power to sway the actual outcome of the battle by that point. It was a one-shot, so losing the horse wouldn't really have turned into any satisfying RP.

    Why did I fudge it? Because the result the dice and the rules gave me just "felt wrong." Even though the horse-vs-demon match was a superfluous sideshow to the battle, the players were cheering and excited for the possibility that the horse would survive. At that moment, the satisfaction of the players outweighed the need for coherent rules to me.

    Why does the game exist in the first place? For the satisfaction of the players. If the rules and dice rolls don't line up with that goal, the DM can step outside of them. So although I almost never fudge, I don't find fault with DMs who do.

    Even if you want to fudge to the point where there are no stakes, go ahead, if your group likes that kind of thing (I wouldn't).

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    1. I mean, that's one very specific situation.. I'd say fudging CAN improve the game in some circumstances.

      However, this part is a dangerous, slippery slope:

      "Why does the game exist in the first place? For the satisfaction of the players. If the rules and dice rolls don't line up with that goal, the DM can step outside of them. So although I almost never fudge, I don't find fault with DMs who do."

      I agree it is a matter of taste, but fudging the dice or the satisfaction of the players is a good way to ruin the game IMO.

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