As I've mentioned before, mages gets better in three "dimensions" as they level up.
- They get more spells.
- They get better spells.
- The spells they already have (e. g., magic missile) become more powerful.
To do something similar, the fighters need:
- Better attacks (i.e., bigger "to-hit" bonus).
- More attacks.
- The attacks get better (i.e., more damage per attack).
Not hard to do at all, especially if they get magic swords and other weapons.
(Although these things are not exactly the same - spells can attack and open doors and deceive and carry stuff, while attacks can only attack. OTOH spells are limited by spell slots while attacks are not, although the MU gets more slots as he levels).
But what about thieves? I guess they should get:
- More skills.
- Better skills.
- Improve the skills they already have.
This is a bit harder to do.
The B/X thief gets better at their skills. They do get a couple of extra skills as they level up (reading languages and casting from scrolls - which don't get better), but these are rare (the MU gets new spells every level).
Giving thieves "skill points" like LotFP is helpful - now they can distribute them freely between "new skill" and "get better at skills you have" (well, to be precise, they don't really get new skills, since every skill starts with a 1-in-6 chance, but... it could be done if you add new skills to the game that you can only access through "points").
Still, while you get better chances of success, your successes are always the same.
So, you get better chances of hiding or climbing - but you don't usually get to hide more people nor do you climb faster as you level up. You open locks more often, but not any faster, etc.
This is "fixed" in modern versions of D&D, but not B/X or AD&D.
One easy way to change that is adding "critical successes" of some kind for thieves' talents.
For example:
If you're using 1d100, "doubles" are now criticals. For example, if you can climb twice the distance or at twice the usual speed, and if you hide you can attack once and remain undetected.
Conversely, you could just add modifiers to these skills. "Attack and hide" imposes a -30% penalty, for example.
Even better, you could use some kind of synergy for thief skills, allowing some skills to affect others.
An idea I've had (and probably mentioned) is the idea that skills at high levels essentially replicate certain spells (but without the spell slot cost/cannot be hampered by anti magic).
ReplyDeleteWould mapping skills to effective spells work for rogues classes?
Some things that start approaching artillery support (fireball/lightening) I would be fine with an alchemist/artificer class that hybridization between skills and magic use for more large scale effects.
Anything that cannot be mapped to a 'skill' conceptually, I'd be OK making a 'High Ritual' and out of regular reach of the game (things like Time Stop, Wish, Meteor Swarm).
I definitely think skills at high levels should be as powerful as some spells. I'm not sure I'd use the same mechanics - spells are limited after all - but maybe with enough time almost anything would be possible.
DeleteA talented locksmith might be able to open magically sealed doors, a climber might "spider climb" but using at least a hand, etc.
There would be some things within the domain of magic users outside 'skilled' characters (ex. Summon monster/raise undead) the idea is that skills can either replicate a spell by physical ability or create a device that can.
DeleteWhere spell slots have an advantage is that things like a device would cost resources to build/maintain that is just daily flexibility for the magic user, with a lot more consistency of effect.
I think this can be balanced by the fact that a magic user can 'gain a new skill' by reading a book (new spell from a spellbook', while high level skills are invested to achieve those results.
Yes, it makes sense. In some of my games I did the opposite, and turned spells into skills. What separates them? Probably spells are more limited in use but have more impressive effects.
DeleteI have mused on the idea of 'all spells as rituals that take a long time to cast (10*level minutes or even make it cumulative (1st level 10 minutes, 2nd level 30 minutes (10*(2+1)), and spell slots are a way to short cut it all.
DeleteBut that sort of system, Rituals fall under one of the Lore knowledge skills. The idea of a wizard (though I'd say it for all casters in this system) to transcribe a spell is the same or similar to the difficulty of doing the ritual, but then having the spellbook means the difficulty is removed and it's just time.
Now, if you want to go really old school, you bring back the long form spell preparation as well, though personally I'd avoid it.
The 'more skills' thing puts me in mind of the line in B/X about higher level Thieves being able to perform ventriloquism, climb across ceilings, and so forth. Using a skill point system does suggest the option of giving out more points at the levels where the new skills come online, too - so a player can choose between perfecting their existing abilities or diversifying their portfolio.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely a good idea - high level thieves should get more impressive (or more varied) skills.
DeleteAnother angle to consider is that fighters and magic-users generally start off reasonably competent against challenges of their own level, and as they level up, they can deal with the lower level challenges more easily while becoming competent to take on bigger and more dangerous challenges. The thief, by comparison, starts out sucking royally at dealing with locks and traps, and for the most part, he'll be dealing with the same locks and traps at 10th level that he did at 1st... or on the 10th level of the dungeon that he did on the 1st level. There is no real provision in the rules for those things to scale with character or dungeon level.
ReplyDeleteA fair point. It is a good thing that locks do not get any harder, but high level thieves should get more impressive skills, in addition to just getting better at existing skills.
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