I like the idea, present in certain gritty RPGs, that a critical hit from a goblin with a rusty knife could kill most PCs, although the chances are minimal. Same for the PCs shooting an arrow against a dragon. Combat is always deadly.
I tried implementing this idea in various ways, and this is the easiest I could think of... but it is still a bit weird.
Here's how it goes: a critical hit (natural 20) that doesn't kill your target has a chance (1% per fighter level) of becoming a deadly blow. A deadly blow multiplies your damage by 1d20.
A 8th level fighter has 8% chance of dealing a deadly blow for each natural 20. It will hardly come up against lowly enemies (they die immediately most of the times), but occasionally, when fighting a dragon or dinosaur, you'll create the scenes you read about in Conan stories (I'm thinking Red Nails) or Tolkien (Bard versus Smaug).
And now even a punch (or improvised weapon) could kill.
Of course, fighting a dragon becomes a lot more dangerous, for PCs of ANY level. No more guarantees...
(If you want armor so give you a bigger chance of survival - which I think is fair - subtract 1 point from the d20 for each point of AC better than unarmored, to a minimum multiplier of x2).
Conversely, there should be a minimal chance of surviving 0 HP. "There is always a chance", as Moldvay says! 1% per fighter level sounds good for that too.
Finally, if you're feeling especially generous and benevolent, you could make a random roll to see where a critical hit lands, potentially turning certain death into something more palatable (e.g., maiming for life).
(A final note: This would be even easier in a d100, system of course. Roll doubles and you multiply your damage by that number: 33 triples your damage, etc. Assuming your fighting ability is around 20% to 99%, it works quite well).
In practice, I don't think I would use such system - it would be very hard on the PCs and I don't know if my players are ready for this much lethality. But could be interesting in a very gritty/horror system.
I like the concept, and you made me think aabout how would I implement such a thing. Let me give you a version that also takes armor, attacker level and DEFENDER level into account:
ReplyDeleteIf you roll a critical hit, make a new attack: if the attack hits, the victim must pass a save vs death or die. This second attack has no effect otherwise.
This might raise the chances just a bit, but makes armor class count (by decreasing the window of the second attack) and the defender's level too by using the save vs death, while using only the d20 for both checks. What do you think?
This idea sounds a lot more elegant than mine! I really like it! OTOH, it doesn't take weapon damage and target HP into account.
DeleteSave vs death is a decent substitute for HP (especially if modified by constitution), but I think current HP should matter too. And unfortunately the cleric has a better save than the fighter in B/X (although I wouldn't assume we are playing B/X RAW).
Finally, while I love the idea of a dagger insta-kill, I do think the 2h-sword should have better chances somehow.
With that said, I like the "using only the d20" part... Maybe the second attack either doubles damage (miss) or multiplies it by 1d20 (hit).
And the save vs. death could still be used if you get to 0 HP, for example (which is likely).
It occurs to me that sometimes creating more combat rules to old school D&D is hard because low-level combat (low to medium chances to hit, little HP compared to damage) is very different from high level combat (high chances to hit, decent HP compared to damage). Especially in AD&D.
DeleteI went to saves versus death IMG with [ascending] AC adding to the save (after all that is what armour is designed to do - protect the vitals).
Delete[Hit points were not a worry since IMG they are the extra effort required to avoid being hit by a blow that would otherwise injure you (in other words a defensive attribute rather than measure of injury taken).]
Sounds interesting! I like the idea of adding AC to the save.
Delete"it doesnt take into account weapon damage or HP"
Deleteyou're right. Well, if that is an issue, instant death can become just an 1d20 multiplier.
I will keep the idea of the save anyways to test it in the future. My houserules dont use damage rolls, taking hit dice instead, and the variable damage dice are factored as to-hit bonuses so it can work very well.
For me the main problem of this idea is if the PCs can withstand the insta-death chance from a random monster. Im sure it can lead to a very different way to play at higher levels, where a single goblin can still be your death
TBH I mentioned a goblin but on further reflection this would only work in a very gritty GoT-style campaign, and even then it might be exaggerated (and frustrating for the players).
DeleteSeems like a lot of work for something that will mostly end up being a roll that disappoints the players.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, the way I currently handle crits is allow weapon damage rolls to "explode" (if you roll highest possible on the damage die, reroll and add, keep doing this until the damage die isn't the max). The advantages I see to this are: the actual change to the expected damage is surprisingly small (about 1 point); there's technically no limit to how high you could roll so nobody is absolutely sure they can take the hit; it's easy to remember and when it triggers it always makes at least a small difference (no Yay crit! Boo rolled less than average damage!); it's completely separate from the nat 20 so it doesn't have that odd effect that against a very high AC *if* you hit it's more likely to be a crit.
Yeah, you're right.
DeleteExploding dice are a good way to have a change of "infinite" damage. OTOH the chances are astronomically low. And I kinda like the "natural 20" crit.
So maybe a combination of both...
I have to thing it further, my idea is half-baked at this point.
What about taking the AC + 10 from PF 2e for critical chance (with 'natural 20' rither adding +10 to the roll (effectively roll a 30). This scales with level/skill.
ReplyDeleteAs far as damage, perhaps there is a way to have the suggested 'save vs. death idea modified by pre calculated threshold (ex. You get -1 to the roll for every quarter of full health you are missing, and the weapon die could perhaps increase the roll by half max damage roll). Have AC improve the roll (+1 for every 2 points, perhaps) and you should have a fairly fast way to check your final bonus/penalty before you roll your save vs. death, since the HP penalty thresholds can be pre calculated, and the weapon 'crit number' can be pre calculated.
Further thoughts on weapons: Magic weapons could have an additional bonus of the magic damage adding directly to the crit number after the average die roll is calculated. So a dagger crit bonus goes 2/3/4 for +0/+1/+2 instead of 2/2/3 if the bonus is added to the roll first.
PS: I know I may have the bonus/penalty flipped since I play mostly modern TTRPGs now, but I think it makes sense in context which values helps one pass the save and which ones do not.
I'll note that this makes a critical hit from spells with attack rolls get very deadly very fast, which may be a bonus. Otherwise this can just be a weapon trait.
I like the idea of taking the margin (10 or more) into account. Maybe it could simplify things.
DeleteYes, magic weapons should certainly add to the damage before multiplication!
I like to let players pick the critical damage, roll and double the dice, or take the maximum value for all variable values instead. Pairing the second with a hit location table showing where they crit, and rolling for secondary effects like putting out an eye or lopping off a hand is good too.
ReplyDelete