One thing I'm starting to dislike running OSR adventures* is the insane amount of treasure and magical items that you find. In addition, the more I read the DMG, the more I feel they were just too generous with treasure and had to come up of endless ways of spending it (training, upkeep, research, rust monsters, disenchanters, item saving throws, etc.).
(* I've been running DCC, LotFP and BFRPG adventures. However, I'm under the impression that's TSR modules are the same - or worse.)
One important caveat: I'm talking about old school games because it has been a while since I've played 5e or other games. I don't remember this being a big issue then, but this could have many reasons (for example, Curse of Strahd is not full of magic items, but it also gives you lots of gold and few things to buy). My issue with 5e was the exaggerated number of class features, but that is another subject.
Anyway, I have three main issues with treasure in OSR adventures.
Magic items
There are just too many to keep track of. My current party has around 3-4 magic items per player at level 5. Each item has different powers, and simple "+1 swords" are getting rarer as each adventure prefers having unique, interesting items (I cannot blame them). Identifying magic items is another headache.
I prefer something grittier, with a Sword & Sorcery vibe, which makes things worse. Conan never gets too many magic items, but even the Fellowship of the Ring gets no more than one or two per character over the whole story. Same for the rest of the Appendix N (except Hawkmoon, and some Vance stories, or so I'm told; let me know if you have other examples).
Come to think of it, not even in the highest of high fantasy books a "medium level" party has that many magic items. In AD&D, a paladin is LIMITED to TEN magic items!
Needless to say, intelligent swords are very rare in fiction too, with the most notable example being Stormbringer.
The problem is that giving away fewer magic weapons and armor leaves little room for improvement of old school fighters (and paladins), for example.
Earning and spending
My PCs are level 5 and don't have much to do with their money (except if they decide to go the domain-building route), unless I start charging for small expenses, note keeping, etc. At least now it will you start affecting their encumbrance (and they find cleric willing to cure a curse for a steep price).
Conan, Grey Mouser etc. would spend some money drinking and gambling, but I can't force the PCs to do the same. Even Conan didn't buy a kingdom - he took one!
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of any fantasy hero counting coins. There is one notable exception (Geralt of Rivia), but most heroes are either always broke or "rich" with things that are not money: followers, titles, lands, etc.
Gold standard
I have tried defending the gold standard before.
Now, I'm finding increasingly difficult to wrap my head around the idea that a ONE POUND silver dagger costs THREE pounds of gold, while simultaneously making gold TEN times the value of silver.
Maybe you could pretend that gold and silver are so common that one week of food (or just one garlic) costs half a pound of gold, but you occasionally find small pieces of jewelry that are worth two to ten pounds of gold. A CLUB costs 3 gold... GARLIC costs 5 in B/X... Gold must be literally growing on trees - or it would be easier to cut trees and make clubs than finding/exploring a gold mine.
Of course, changing these absurd weights will you make it too easy to carry a fortune without affecting encumbrance.
Solutions
For a S&S vibe, I could replace some magic items by "masterwork" items of ancient civilizations, maybe with +1 to hit OR damage. Alternatively, we could go the Game of Thrones route and make different qualities of weapons. "Castle forged" swords are high quality, equivalent to +1 swords, and Valyrian Steel are +2, without any enchantments, just because the material/crafting is superior.
It would be appropriate and flavorful, and fighters could identify them immediately (without the need of a spell or specialist) - and they'd still get customization through feats, despite fewer magic weapons.
Old school D&D has enough things to spend money on, I know. The problem is my PCs are hoarders and I don't want to play tax attorney - and they don't want to build a kingdom just yet. A good solution I've seen elsewhere is giving XP for money spent. This will give them a reason to drink, gamble, etc. And maybe you can occasionally find a trainer that doubles the amount of XP you get for the money spent.
The silver standard is a good solution for the value of gold. I'd also reduce the amount of treasure altogether, maybe ten times - you could reduce the XP requirements accordingly, or just multiply XP by a factor of 5 to 15, depending on how you spend it. Or the other hand, making coins lighter (100 per pound) would allow decent amounts of money to be carried.
Silver standard is the way!
ReplyDeleteDefinitely!
Deletesilver standard + armor values in gold. Don't know where I read that but I use it and I love it.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is perfect! I think Delta suggests that.
Deletehttp://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html
Neat! Very detailed ordinary weapon rules.
ReplyDeleteCouple things:
ReplyDelete[spend some money drinking and gambling]
Well you may not be able to *force* them, but you can definitely incentive them. Presumably you're familiar with this? http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/12/party-like-its-999.html?m=1
[changing coin weights]
Maybe? If you were to change coin weight to be 1 coin = 1/100 pound, you could give out more silver and copper and not have them be too heavy to be worth carrying.
[Silver standard] - I generally like the idea of the silver standard but I'm not sure *exactly* what people mean when they recommend it. Presumably most people mean that 1sp = 1 xp and all prices stay the same. I think this is mostly a good idea, but there will be certain 'big-ticket' items that become available at only very high levels, if ever. Take OSE as an example - a longship will run you 150,000 sp, a sage will run you 20,000 sp / month, magical research will run you 10,000 sp per spell level / week. Maybe those are fine, but it's effectively removing those things for large portions of the game where they would have been available. Outside the equipment list and food/lodging I think the silver isn't as cut and dry as at people suggest.
Not sure I read this post before, but might have. Awesome stuff regardless!
Delete1 coin = 1/100 pound soudns good to me.
"Presumably most people mean that 1sp = 1 xp and all prices stay the same." - Nope, all prices are converted to silver too (except armor). A sage would cost 2,000sp/month, most relative costs would be the same, it is just that gold would be more valuable.
Hmmm I see. There are two related monetary problems people seem to be trying to solve with the silver standard:
Delete1. The amount of treasure required to keep PCs leveling is too high compared to the prices of *most* things. PCs become fabulously wealthy and material goods become trivial.
2. Compared to the real world, the amount of gold available is way too high, and it doesn't feel *right*. A gigantic gold coin buys a few loaves of bread - shouldn't the peasants be swimming in gold?
I think the silver standard you're describing fixes #2 nicely but #1 remains an issue for old versions of d&d
Yes, indeed! AD&D "fixes" that with more costs and taxes, but for a S&S feel it would be better to convert to silver AND divide by ten.
DeleteIt's the "divide by ten" bit that I think is trickier than it seems. Dividing treasure required to level (and available treasure in adventures) by ten effectively increases the price of everything 10x.
DeleteRaising the relative cost for things like lodging, equipment, arms and armor is probably fine and will do a lot of the heavy lifting of "how do I drain the PC's wealth?" that otherwise would require keeping track of upkeep costs, training, it other systems. These seem fine to me, as there are a lot of mundane costs that become absurdly cheap even at levels 1 and 2. Asking PCs for 5 cp for an ale at the local inn is pointless when they've got thousands of GP.
However, dividing required/available treasure by ten will make certain things like water vehicles, strongholds, magical research and certain specialists either unaffordable or available much later in the game. Maybe this is fine, but it does limit the scope of the game down the road .
Well, this could certainly be a problem if you want to get to the domain management phase.
DeleteHowever, it is no issue for a S&S campaign. Conan will not buy a kingdom with gold, or even hire sages by the month. Still, I agree it's something to consider carefully before the beginning of the campaign.
I use the DCC-Lankhmar carousing tables in my DCC to keep the PCs hungry.
ReplyDeleteMy C&Ths hack requires squandering all coin on drink to level up. Also, we use coin and don't worry about copper-silver-gold.
May I link?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15YcWKCcVkQEjTBbJv1bsvvsV3zQkI6lOJNxhcrMDpqc/edit?usp=drivesdk
DeleteNeat! I like it, abstract "coins" are better than this gold/silver nonsense.
DeleteI second the idea of 'magic' weapons being interesting traits, and the bonuses being smithing quality.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at stories of smiths, they were seen as magic in thier own way, as they knew how to turn raw mefal into tools and then use those tools to shape everything else.
So +1 being expert craftsmanship, +2 being high quality metal, +3 being something extra added to the mix (not recalling how high weapon bonuses got), but it's enough that say all arms and armour could be identified by those proficient with them (heck extend it out for all tools).
Perhaps more work would be needed to identify a unique/specific item, but the mechanics would be simple.
Might be less 'Identify' and more 'Legend Lore'
As for magic items in general, I am torn. Because they do give you more interesting tools that work better than 'You somehow learn to run really, really fast (Boots of Speed)' or 'You have a specific skill with tying and freeing tied ropes (Rope of Climbing).
Yeah, I see what you mean. I think I'll just pick and choose the magic items in the modules from now on: discard as much as I can but keep the most interesting ones.
DeleteAs for identifying them, I think this is only fair. I occasionally let magic-users try to identify wands, etc., and I think Fighters deserve a similar perk.
I think in old school D&D, magic items replaces the class powers . The magic items, spells are the "build" of your character. Instead of buildcrafting in the character creation, you build the "powers" of your character with looting in play. This is different from the Sword and Sorcery fiction you mentioned, but this is because D&D is not a "narrative simulator" like some of more recent rpgs. D&D is inspired in Sword and Sorcery fiction, but it not a recreation of these type of fiction (like some other modern rpgs). The game itself is inspired in the "world simulation" of the campaigns common in the wargames, with more a sandbox nature to them. D&D despite being inspired in Sword and Sorcery, it's your own thing
ReplyDeleteExactly - magic items replaces the class powers.
DeleteMy issue with 5e is too many class powers, and with OSR is too much treasure.
D&D isn't exactly S&S, you're right, but I think you can adapt it to the genre.